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5.2 buffs not good thing...
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Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Farisin
Sub is almost completely worthless this expansion due to the extreme amount of movement involved. It's not possible to be behind the boss 100% of the time to be spamming backstab. The changes to combat are fine, and I believe the changes to sub won't make it any more prevalent than it already is (which is to say not very). The 20% damage reduction they're adding to smoke bomb is definitely not a bad thing, we needed some type of raid utility. Keep in mind I don't pvp much and this is coming from a pve perspective, exclusively.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Neffi
Everyone knows rogues are getting a big buff which leads that rogues become op which leads to giant nerfs in 5.3.
Logic; you're doing it wrong.
The buffs are largely dispersed between talents. No single rogue is going to see all the buffs at once. At best rogues will be brought in line with other DPS classes right now. To suggest we're going to be over the top OP is ridiculous and unfounded. If you want to continue asserting that claim, provide some concrete explanations of new mechanics that will lead to overpar viability in real situations.
Is there anyone els who thinks the same?
Unfortunately there's a lot of them. And none of them have provided any better feedback than you have. For the benefit of all of us, trust the people with over a decade of experience making games to make their game and stop whining.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Neffi
The difference is that I play as rogue and I think the buffs aint good thing. And yeah maybe the OP was wrong term... (Well in wrong hands it might get OP which aint good thing).
I've been playing rogues for almost 5 years now (except for most of this expansion, though I'm going to pick him up again). I think the changes are fine. If you'd like to point out a specific change that you think is too good, I'll address why I think it's not. Otherwise you're just trying to make a point while not making any point whatsoever. Being a "bad explainer" is no excuse.
buffing might lead for nerfs in 5.3. And as a rogue Im not so excited.
Balance is a continuum, not a binary state. Rogues need help, so they're giving it to us. If specific changes prove to be too much in 5.2, then toning those changes down is only the right thing to do. Looking at changes as "buffs" and "nerfs" is probably the wrong way to do it.
Post by
stuffeh
ST is a completely new mechanic within MOP. Before mop, I would only throw to keep up poisons on a target or to throw at another rogue/healer to keep them in combat so that they wouldn't be able to stealth/get mana back. So it would be expected that blizzard would change this talent up, especially when not many people take it outside of pvp.
I can agree that burst of speed right now is over powered, being able to get out of roots and what not. Reducing the energy cost and allowing the ability to use it in stealth (early in MOP, there was a blue post or two that specifically said that burst of speed was intended to BREAK stealth) is a fair trade in my eyes.
The obvious buffs to combat to make it fall into line with assassination is to allow the player to choose a spec based on weapons available and preference rather than forcing down one road or the other.
Until they make a glyph or talent that allows backstab to not always be from the back, or change hemo such that it will only be a 1-3% dps loss compared to backstab, sub will never be viable. They'll probably change it up more in 5.3 or figure out something for it in the next expansion.
Post by
Neffi
sub will never be viable.
According to
World of Wargraph's
statistics (mined from the Armory daily), Sub currently represents 2.3% of the total population over 2200 rating, and 1.5% of the total population altogether. Above 2200, that's a whole 1% more than the Assassination population (1.3%). I'd say the distribution of specs among the population completely disagrees with you.
I jumped on the Assassination bandwagon too when 5.0 hit. All the small changes that seemed to eat away at the core strengths of Cata-era Sub made it seem like the wrong choice on paper, and Assass hadn't been played in so long it was something fresh and new. I played for a while, and then quit my rogue out of disinterest. I recently came back, switched back to Sub, and took a while to reconsider the mechanics to try and relearn the spec as it stands right now, and now I feel
much
stronger with Sub than I did as Assass (gear being equal).
I think a lot of the arguments that Sub is inviable are coming from people that made the same mistake as I did. They saw their beloved spec change, and hopped onto a new bandwagon. Those that stayed with Sub seem apt to stick to their old ways and play Sub just like they did in Cata. That's evidenced by sentiments in many Arena Junkies threads, where Sub rogues are saying such silly things as "recup shouldnt be something u dont use".
After ignoring the trend and assessing the specs on their own merit (not on what they used to be, or how I used to play them) I'm championing Sub as a very strong and viable spec at the moment.
Of course, if you like Assass, stick to it. The tentative goal when redesigning the talent and spec system seemed to be doing away with cookie-cutters. That's not going to happen if everyone says
play
this
spec
and everyone else listens. Not only because it imposes an artificial cookie-cutter, but also because if a given spec is only played by a small portion of the playerbase, then less feedback and less positive balancing is going to be given to that spec, eventually making it weak in PvP as time goes on and patches are released.
Edit:
It seems right to add: I've never had a problem standing behind the target before MoP. Backstab and Ambush being direction-limited did not hinder Sub rogues when they were on the top of the food chain, so saying it's the absolute limiting factor now doesn't logically hold. Sure, our mobility isn't quite as good as it was in Cata, but homogenizing the spec to be the same toe-to-toe concept as all other melee isn't the obvious and absolute solution you're saying it is. It's designed to be back-facing for a reason: it adds non-tangible depth to the spec and makes it interesting. Don't argue for more of the same, I think we still need
more
spec-defining characteristics to give people a reason to want to play one over the other.
Anyway, 5.2 is a buff to mobility if you consider all the changes as a whole. Prep will keep us out of sticky snags much more easily; slightly buffed Recup, the new Shuriken and Deadly Throw design, and other changes will keep us from feeling helpless and panicking (or giving up hope) when we
are
caught in a sub-optimal situation. I think we'll be more than fine in 5.2. Don't judge it from an armchair, because that cannot and will not give you the qualia of playing it. Wait for 5.2, and if things still are not fine, 5.2.x and 5.3 will come thereafter.
Post by
stuffeh
you totally took that out of context, i'm refering to pve, not pvp. i should of been clearer with that. It was in response to...
Sub is almost completely worthless this expansion due to the extreme amount of movement involved. It's not possible to be behind the boss 100% of the time to be spamming backstab. The changes to combat are fine, and I believe the changes to sub won't make it any more prevalent than it already is (which is to say not very). The 20% damage reduction they're adding to smoke bomb is definitely not a bad thing, we needed some type of raid utility. Keep in mind I don't pvp much and this is coming from a pve perspective, exclusively.
Post by
Coldkil
Sub numers are fine, just it's not played because of the less familiarity with the spec.
A random rogue decides to switch to sub, makes a mess because he doens't know how to play it well, then assassination is better.
This counts much more than the number Shadocraft can provide - the 4% buff is more an appeal thing ("hey, sub is being beuffed, let's try it") than an actual balancing buff.
As for the rest of the 5.2:
- C&D looks extremely fun and a lot of mobility. I think it will be extremeley useful also in raid - you've a full shadowdance guaranteed to hit.
- H&R looks extremely clunky; maybe fun, but i hate the ground targeting abilities, most of the times result in loss of time and you don't want downtime.
- new BF is somewhat due; current BF is so strong that we all "must" spec combat for any cleave fight. Anyway apart the nerf there should be a viable cleave mechanic for every spec, otherwise we will still play combat because of cleave (and now really op in fights like wind lord).
- MfD is awesome. Anticipation is still strong, but when you count the fights in which you have some switching (not necessarily once every 10 seconds) it becomes a really strong option. Not counting solo play and PvP implications (anyway for PvP ST is still a very good option to avoid kiting, so i think it will stay in its place).
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Neffi
Sub was ridiculous in Cata-era PvP. A geared sub rogue had no hard counter, insane survivability and huge burst potential. They were arguably the strongest class in arenas, especially if they had their legendary weapons.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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