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Combat Swords v Combat Fists
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Post by
152120
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
This belongs in the rogue forums. Also, I imagine that eventually the extra full attacks (and criticals) from Sword Specialization would outweigh the fists. See what the others have to say first.
Post by
sYs73m
I've yet to hit the level of raiding you're at on my rogue, but with my fury warrior, whom is on equal grounds with you, the rogues are not switching to the first weapons as the damage output isn't the same. Remx probably has more to add since he is in the same point, raiding progression wise, as you.
There is the option of Fist MH/Sword OH, which can proc free main-hand swings. That may prove to contend with Sword/Sword, but I doubt it'll surpass it. In my opinion, stick with double swords.
Post by
Feanora
Your dps would go down if you dual-wield Vanir's, because in comparison to specs involving swords, straight up combat fists sucks. It will increase a marginal amount if you go fist/sword, with the Vanir's MH, because fist/sword is on par with combat swords, although there is an ongoing debate as to whether it's actually better or not. For exact numbers, consult a spreadsheet.
That said, I've got the same weapon choices as you, and I'm staying swords and holding out hope for warglaives. Or a Muramasa.
Post by
18754
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Feanora
Thanks, Minxette, for that. Yes, fists does suck, because even though Vanir's are both significantly higher DPS than Infamy/MGS, the swords will still remain about equal. In general, straight up fists will lag a few percent behind swords or sword/fist, and the disparity is such that even with two swords with an inferior damage range, they will still contribute more dps than "better" fist weapons. Obviously when you're talking about a range of 10+ dps, such as the difference between S1 swords and Vanir's, the fists will pull ahead, but not nearly as significantly as you're making it out to be. Again, you can cry about it all you like, but math, simple or otherwise, says so.
Post by
Remx
Icemanx, chill the hell out.
Post by
Feanora
I would love to see any math proving me wrong. Show your work, go.
Post by
Orphiel
@Icemanx: Would you care to look at what you posted you were using and what the OP is wearing currently?
Yes. S1-to-Vanir is a significant upgrade. You're absolutely right. Infamy-to-Vanir? I don't think so. Why? The S1 swords are only what? 91.something DPS? Compare this to the Vanir, which are 103 DPS. It would be asinine to imply that this is not going to increase your DPS noticeably. Let's look at Infamy to Vanir though.
100.2 on the Blade of Infamy vs. 103.0 on the Vanir. Now, let us recall that, specced combat swords, he can proc for extra swings. He cannot proc for extra swings using both Vanir. 3 DPS on the weapon isn't going to make the different that that extra swing proc is.
See why this upgrade is better for you, but not him? It's situational. Higher, raw, DPS doesn't always mean it's a bigger upgrade.
Post by
Remx
Vanir's right fist + sword OH with a fist/sword spec will yield greater DPS than infamy + sword OH with a sword spec, but so slightly you won't really notice.
It's questionable as to whether taking both of Vanir's fists with a fist spec will yield greater or lesser DPS than infamy + MGQ (I'm assuming mention of the MGS in the OP was a typo, if it wasn't you need to get a sword OH ASAP), as the Vanir's left fist is a significant upgrade over MGQ. Your best bet would be to spreadsheet it.
If I were you, I'd keep infamy and pick up an MGQ if you really do have the MGS. If you do already have the MGQ in your OH then either upgrade to a VGQ, blade of savagery or stay put. If you feel you can manage the rating requirement, the brutal gladiator weapons will be an incredible upgrade a little way down the track.
Post by
133983
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Post by
kicklucky
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Rem beat me to it....
Post by
68244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Feanora
Use a space after a sentence's ending punctuation. Geez.
It's like he's breathlessly yelling inane falsities at us, kinda like Rush Limbaugh. Hey Icemanx, do you have an addiction to painkillers by some chance?
Post by
18754
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
105900
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Remx
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii109/Remphoto/1260.gif
Post by
Orphiel
Iceman, nowhere did I state that fist spec sucks. And that 5% crit? It doesn't measure to a full extra hit with your weapon. I'm sorry. Unless you're one of those rogues who stacks crit gems to kingdom come and beleives that your crit is what makes your DPS in the raid, in which case, do rogues everywhere a favour and just delete and cancel your account. Crit is not an important stat to stack in the long run. Applying this to the arguement is silly.
But, since you want to make the argument that that 5% increase in crit is significant, then daggers should be better than swords too? Same with Maces? Please, think before you type. 5% crit on 2.8 raw DPS isn't that big of a difference. You seem to think that S1 swords are equivilant to the MGQ and Infamy, which they're not.
Higher DPS, yes. Better? Marginally, in which you can spend your badges on something else to significantly increase your dps. At T4 level, yes. You're right. This fists are much better than anything else you can get. Why? Because they have itemization on par with T6 items. And it would be advised for any T4 rogue to get, at least, one of them, and either get the other, or fight for the Akil'zon sword and reap the rewards of much better DPS.
Stop spouting crap and assuming things. Fist Spec is viable in PvE. It's just less viable than swords, and only in situations where the gear is far below it's ilvl to begin with, will these fists make a significant difference. Stating that higher raw dps makes it a better upgrade is silly if you can't think beyond the numbers on the weapon.
Post by
Feanora
No, Orphiel, I'm the one who said that fists sucks. And I stand by that, because in raids anything less than optimal is needlessly gimping yourself and your raid. If you're able to get a s2 offhand sword - and if you're not, you're retarded - then going sword-fist with that and Vanir's is better than dual fists. Therefore, since using dual fists is needlessly gimping yourself over equally (hell, probably more easily) attainable alternatives, yes... it does indeed suck. Do yourself a favor, icemanx, and stop digging yourself deeper into that hole.
And again, if you can prove that statement wrong, with WWS parses, spreadsheet math, napkin math, anything, then I beg you to do so. Until then, stop spouting your "WELL I DONE DID MOAR DEEPS WIF T6-QUALITY FISTS THAN BASIC WELFARE SWORDS SO I WINZ" line. Congratulations, that's like saying you do more dps with level 70 gear than level 60 gear. Again, I challenge you: prove me wrong, and then maybe people will stop laughing at your pathetic sputtering attempts to discredit the people here who actually know what they're talking about.
Post by
razzem
Where is that original moderator that moved this thread here? Can we get a lock please, this is out of hand... as usual in this forum.
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